Curse

Dougal Kronik · May 01, 2007, 08:04 PM // 20:04

Loviatar, where are you farming, what mode, and what are you using as weapons, armor, runes, inscriptions.

Tell you what, I challenge you to farm in normal mode most places that casual players have farmed. Hydras outside of Augury Rock, Trolls outside of Droknar's Forge, and minotaurs whereever is best to farm those.

Give it an honest run, meaning see how long it takes you to actually get 5k by only merching your drops.

Then come back and let us know how you did.

I will do the same and post my results.

PS I used to be able to get 5k in about 30mins outside of Augury.

blackbird71 · May 01, 2007, 09:00 PM // 21:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darksun

Ok, that definitely makes me question your bias,(although it could just be bad luck) but I don't make the assumption that casual players never play Hard Mode. How many hrs a week/day is a casual player to you? My friend plays about 6hrs a week max.(only on Fri/Sat at my place) and he's getting his second piece of Vabbian armor, has a 15k set and a luxon set. He has never farmed. EVER. You guys are talking about Rune & skill prices.. I just can't buy it.

You're beating a Strawman. I never said anyone should play in any specific way. Period. Second, this change effect solo farmers. You are saying that the casual player goes out and solo farms to get money.. No. I don't buy it. You are assuming a casual player only plays in a specific way (just like you told me I 'selfishly' was) and that the 'huge' solo farming business is now only producing a 1/4 of what it was.

This is exactly why I relisted the posts of those casual players complaining about the update. You choose not to believe that this is the playstyle of many casual players, even when there are plenty of them saying it to your face. If you want to talk about ignoring opposing statements, you had better open your own mind up a bit more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darksun

Are you saying you'd buy a copy of the game for everyone who was opposed to the level cap? This is a silly argument. Every game has people disappointed with it. People leaving is part of the business. You think people are thrilled with the Shaman nerf? Makes the Paragon nerf look tame.

Don't be ridiculous. I was pointing out the only way that those who support this update could show that support through an economic effect. I'm not expecting anyone to actually do it, it's just what would have to happen for the supporters to balance out the objectors at the bottom line.

I don't play WoW, so frankly I could care less about the Shaman nerf. What does that even have to do with this discussion?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darksun

The fact that you make a huge post pointing out all the responses that agree with you. And none weighing the other way. That's complete disregard.

I am not going to argue the same points over and over every time someone new comes to the discussion and doesn't care to read what has already been addressed many times over. Like I said before, read through the thread, read my posts (first one is on page 11), and once you've done that, then tell me what points of yours or others' that oppose mine I have not already addressed. If you do this and manage to find something, I would be happy to discuss it with you. If you don't care to put in that effort, then it's not worth my time to respond.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darksun

It sucks that people think this is worth leaving over, I wish you didn't. But this just happens in game. The question is weather the bad(people discontent) outweighs the good(people content). THAT's why I think we need to look at both sides.

Once again, the content players on this issue have no impact on Anet's future income, unless you can show me some proof of players who would have left the game if loot scaling had not been implemented. You can look at both sides all you want. People can do "casual tests" all they want. It will not change the minds of those who through their own experience have tried the changes and found them lacking. When this discussion started, we discussed the potential effects on the game in great detail, but it was all hypothetical until it could be put to the test. Now, players have made that test, and we have moved from the realm of a discussion of possibilites to a realm of firsthand experience. No amount of discussion or debate is going to convince someone who has seen with their own eyes and made their own decision that the update is wrong (or right for that matter) that what they have seen and experienced is not the way things really are. My point is that at this time, discussion is moot, the players have the evidence before them through playing the game itself, not by reading opinions on the forum, and they will judge for themselves whether they will stay or go.

Loviatar · May 01, 2007, 09:07 PM // 21:07

[QUOTE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dougal Kronik

Loviatar, where are you farming, what mode, and what are you using as weapons, armor, runes, inscriptions.

NORMAL MODE

the run i posted was typical so simply use that.

nolani back to the courthouse.

nolani exit get the gargoyles than hook back right instead of crossing the bridge with the gargoyles on the other side of the bridge.

hook around to the left where more gargoyles are along with the 3 stormriders close to that bridge.

continue straight ahead through the arch to the char instead of left through the arch to the gargiyles.

follow the groups of char cleaning out all including the ones in the tar streambed area.

go back to the next bunches of char close to the uplands? zone area than head for the courthouse until your 20-22 minutes are up or your inventory is full.
character is elemonk with 39 skill points unspent and mostly basic skills WITH NO ELITES EQUIPPED
armor is 20 month old DROK
BASIC MINOR RUNES WITH MAJOR FIRE AND FIRE HEADPIECE
WEAPON IS FACTIONS CRAFTER +5 WAND DROK +12 FOCUS

I CHEATED BY USING FLAME JINNS HASTE FOR SPEED BUT THAT IS WHAT I GOT

rohlfinator · May 02, 2007, 08:30 AM // 08:30

I was hoping to step out of this topic since it seems to be retreading old ground, but I want to make one quick point:

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackbird71

This is exactly why I relisted the posts of those casual players complaining about the update. You choose not to believe that this is the playstyle of many casual players, even when there are plenty of them saying it to your face.

This is a bit of a fallacy, specifically a fallacy of insufficient statistics. The players who are content with the update are much less likely to post, because their enjoyment of the game was not interrupted. The posters who are inclined to post here have a heavy bias toward being dissatisfied with the update, so looking at this thread alone is a highly inaccurate representation of the game's population as a whole.

reetkever · May 02, 2007, 09:08 AM // 09:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by rohlfinator

I was hoping to step out of this topic since it seems to be retreading old ground, but I want to make one quick point:

This is a bit of a fallacy, specifically a fallacy of insufficient statistics. The players who are content with the update are much less likely to post, because their enjoyment of the game was not interrupted. The posters who are inclined to post here have a heavy bias toward being dissatisfied with the update, so looking at this thread alone is a highly inaccurate representation of the game's population as a whole.

Well, only 1 percent of the anti-farmers post here (casual players farm as well, so it's not casual players vs farmers), but 1 percent of the farmers post here as well. After all, let's not forget how much people left the game after Nightfall came out, and with this update. I'd say that more people were farming than people were anti-farming. (Anyone who beat the game more than 7 times would like to do something else than storyline... Unless you dislike change ALOT, and nothing else can be done without cash, so people NEED to farm)

Most people already gave up on Guild Wars. The farmers still posting here are darned stubborn still believing in Guild Wars.

Don't look at the topic, look at the game. I've never seen most outposts so empty, guild so empty, friends list so empty, etc. Well maybe I only had strongfriends who already beat the game 7 times, but I think that even if they beat it 4 or 5 times, they'd be bored of Guild Wars now already.

BuD · May 02, 2007, 01:21 PM // 13:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by reetkever

I've never seen most outposts so empty

DoA is a ghost town post loot scaling, I was shocked when I went there last night. I dont understand how ANet doesnt see the negative effect loot scaling is having, there are MORE farming bots in more outposts (citadel, bergen etc.) than pre-loot scaling.

Im starting to buy into the conspiracy theory, ANet wants bots for the profit of new accounts re-bought by the bot farmers after theyve been banned. They lost alot of "legit" players to this update & gained sooo many more botters.

Esadha Kephal · May 02, 2007, 01:58 PM // 13:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by reetkever

Don't look at the topic, look at the game. I've never seen most outposts so empty, guild so empty, friends list so empty, etc. Well maybe I only had strongfriends who already beat the game 7 times, but I think that even if they beat it 4 or 5 times, they'd be bored of Guild Wars now already.

I'm a "casual player" (oh no, those words again!) who always plays with a full team (usually hero/hench), and the change in loot isn't affecting me nearly as much as the point above. I'm used to seeing a handful of guildies and as many or more folks on my Friends list and/or in Alliance chat when I sign on, but lately, it's been very slim indeed.

To give the benefit of the doubt, it is exam/graduation time for the students in our midst, but in my guild, at least, the vast majority of people are out of school, and that should not be the issue. Among the guildies and alliance members I talk to the most, there was quite a bit of grumbling about this change, and we're not talking heavy farmers or power traders here. Most of them have given Hard Mode a try, and still have not been impressed. All of this is fairly disheartening for me, not because I'm getting less loot, but because my friends aren't playing as much anymore. For every player who rage-quits or drifts away in dissatisfaction, I wonder how many there are who follow them just because the fun social aspect of the game is gone for them...

Chieftain Heavyhand · May 02, 2007, 02:39 PM // 14:39

Since the change I decided to try farming again.

I am a casual player. I play for fun and as time allows. I farm to make money to support my characters, to gather up crafting materials, and collect holiday items. If I can farm anyone can. The big problem with the loot change is that it is a limiter. It may temporarily hamper the bots but like always they will over come any obstacle that is placed in their path. The loot change only affects real players the boters have all the time in the world what does it matter to them if it takes a few more runs to gather gold. As for real players and especially casual ones we have limits to time. Now it will take 8 time longer for a solo farmer to gather loot. I play in teams to complete missions and quest. I farm for my own personal interest and at my own pace, so I like to do it alone. There is also something about being able to solo things that groups have a hard time with.

I think A-net has a great game and I enjoy all of the events and holidays the put together, but the spin they put on the loot change is just that spin. They tried to make it out that this would benefit people and hamper the bots. However it will only hamper people because the bots could care less if it takes 4 runs or 32 runs to gather up the gold they need.

My point is that if the real players have the means to make money they will not buy gold. How much time does A-net use trying to find ways to stop bots and farming that could be used to improve the game? How much of that time could have gone toward creating an auction house for us casual players to have a place to "trade our high end goods" as GG stated.

Casual players do not have time to set around spamming WTS. I know that you are encouraging selling to players instead of to the merchant but give us the means to do so. Give us a place where we can drop off items we want to sell. The sells can be done like eBay. The sellers sets a buy it now price, a bid starting point and the house has a set number of days it will stay on auction. At the end of the auction the seller can sell or refuse if the price does not meet their expectations. However; there should be limits on how long an item can be up for auction so that people do not use the auction houses as a storage shed.

Nomen Mendax · May 02, 2007, 04:27 PM // 16:27

[QUOTE=Loviatar]

Quote:

NORMAL MODE
...
nolani back to the courthouse.
nolani exit get the gargoyles than hook back right instead of crossing the bridge with the gargoyles on the other side of the bridge.
hook around to the left where more gargoyles are along with the 3 stormriders close to that bridge.
continue straight ahead through the arch to the char instead of left through the arch to the gargoyles.
...

I've done a couple of small (statistically insignificant) tests, which tie in with Loviatar's assessment of how much money you can get from farming the Lowlands.

I'm still going to twist this into another criticism of the update though

Over the last couple of weeks I've done 4 or 5 vermin runs in the Skyway, and the drop rate seems to average around 1 in 4 (and I haven't seen any purples, golds, or Shredder's talons). The rate was also very consistent over the runs (i.e. always around 1 in 4).

I've been out twice (for around ten minutes each) in the Lowlands area that Loviatar was describing and both times the drop rate was better than 1 in 2.

Given the small number of tests I've made the difference could be down to the randomness mentioned in Gaile's first post, but it doesn't seem like it.

I get the impression that the drop rate varies on a number of factors other than party size, although I have no clue what those factors are. ANet may put this all down to preventing bots, but I find it frustrating not being given the details of the change. I'm not saying I want to see the code, but enough information to actually make some informed decisions would be good.

Darksun · May 02, 2007, 04:35 PM // 16:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackbird71

This is exactly why I relisted the posts of those casual players complaining about the update. You choose not to believe that this is the playstyle of many casual players, even when there are plenty of them saying it to your face. If you want to talk about ignoring opposing statements, you had better open your own mind up a bit more.

I think we all get the point of you listing the posts. The problem is where you say "The only truly decisive measure we have of the effects of these changes is the net effect on the customer base."
Guess what? If we only look at the opposing view, you don't actually see the net effect. Quote as much as you want, but if it's a minority, why should it be headed?
I'm ignoring? No, I'm suggesting we show ANET as much as we can, good & bad. But I don't go around saying "Well, I think we can all agree that only the people who hate this effect ANET's decisions."

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackbird71

Don't be ridiculous. I was pointing out the only way that those who support this update could show that support through an economic effect. I'm not expecting anyone to actually do it, it's just what would have to happen for the supporters to balance out the objectors at the bottom line.

You suggest I go buy GW because it's the only way to "balance out the objectors", then when I suggest it for a different issue, it's ridiculous? Maybe you're beginning to realize how silly the suggestion was in the first place.
I can support this update by saying on the forum I'm fine with it. ANET then takes the info here and decides weather this was a good move or not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackbird71

I don't play WoW, so frankly I could care less about the Shaman nerf. What does that even have to do with this discussion?

My goodness man. Do you even read?
"Every game has people disappointed with it. People leaving is part of the business." It's just an example.

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackbird71

I am not going to argue the same points over and over every time someone new comes to the discussion and doesn't care to read what has already been addressed many times over. Like I said before, read through the thread, read my posts (first one is on page 11), and once you've done that, then tell me what points of yours or others' that oppose mine I have not already addressed. If you do this and manage to find something, I would be happy to discuss it with you. If you don't care to put in that effort, then it's not worth my time to respond.

You don't need to. I don't mind that you argue points of contention. I do mind when you make posts saying "ok, these are the views that REALLY matter" That's why I said something then. never mind that a host of the views don't give any real data.

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackbird71

Once again, the content players on this issue have no impact on Anet's future income, unless you can show me some proof of players who would have left the game if loot scaling had not been implemented.

This is where it falls apart. Content players can give ANET feedback saying "this or that works, keep up the vision you are following".

Say I & 10 other people left because I hated the fact that sapphires were 7k. That doesn't mean that other people shouldn't point out WHY a they should be expensive. And WHY they agree with the prices. Then ANET can decide weather they should change the prices.

Bottom line: the reason I say we need both views up here is to give ANET a gauge to decide weather this was I viable choice for what they want to accomplice. You argued you points, that's great.

TabascoSauce · May 02, 2007, 05:22 PM // 17:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darksun

You don't need to. I don't mind that you argue points of contention. I do mind when you make posts saying "ok, these are the views that REALLY matter" That's why I said something then. never mind that a host of the views don't give any real data..

Is it just me, or did you just write a 10 paragraph manifesto about how your views, which conflict with his views, really matter (more than his)?

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

Darksun · May 02, 2007, 05:35 PM // 17:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

Is it just me, or did you just write a 10 paragraph manifesto about how your views, which conflict with his views, really matter (more than his)?

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

It's just you. I never said my views about loot scaling matter more than his. You are completely manufacturing that for the sake of winning an argument. (Which you've done before.)

There is a world of difference between pointing out why you do/don't support something, and saying that, really, your opinions on game mechanics/changes are the only ones that should be heeded.

TabascoSauce · May 02, 2007, 06:03 PM // 18:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darksun

There is a world of difference between pointing out why you do/don't support something, and saying that, really, your opinions on game mechanics/changes are the only ones that should be heeded.

Hm. Your use of the singular "your opinions" may not be teeeeeeechnically correct. I recall him quoting a dozen players who agree with him.

Lets see, moving on, you told him that he selectively grabbed people who agreed with him, and he invited you to do the same. Well I am looking back as best I can on this thread, and I think you might be hard-pressed to come up with the same number of posters who support the loot scaling to quote? Maybe that is why you demurred from answering his challenge?

I dunno bro. I am going to side with Lyra. (who likes attributions for her comments) I agree that this does not help or hurt the casual player, which directly conflicts with your view.

So, now according to your script, this is your big chance to tell me that your views are the only ones that matter.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

Darksun · May 02, 2007, 06:45 PM // 18:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

Hm. Your use of the singular "your opinions" may not be teeeeeeechnically correct. I recall him quoting a dozen players who agree with him.

semantic dancing again.
dozen players who agree with him = his "opinions". I'm sorry i don't write text books like you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

Lets see, moving on, you told him that he selectively grabbed people who agreed with him, and he invited you to do the same.

Why would I want to do that?

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

Well I am looking back as best I can on this thread, and I think you might be hard-pressed to come up with the same number of posters who support the loot scaling to quote?

People who are content with what is going on,tend not to complain about it. I'm not worried about people posting negatively about the scaling, the posts are already here! Disagreeing is fine. That's why I keep saying, for the millionth time(oh yeah, I don't really mean 1 million, it's a saying) I would rather just continue discussion instead of trying to say this or that is the real deal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

Maybe that is why you demurred from answering his challenge?

I'm not concerned with his "challenge" because All it says it "IGNORE EVERYONE ELSE, THIS IS THE REAL TRUTH." I would rather just continue discussing reasons we don't/do like it, so ANET can look here and hash it out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

So, now according to your script, this is your big chance to tell me that your views are the only ones that matter.

According to my script? Which part did I say I wanted to make my views the definitive one? Oh yeah, you made that up too, I forgot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

I dunno bro. I am going to side with Lyra. (who likes attributions for her comments) I agree that this does not help or hurt the casual player, which directly conflicts with your view.

It directly conflicts my view? How?

Tobasco, you really need to stop just making stuff up.

Sir Kilgore · May 02, 2007, 07:16 PM // 19:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darksun

Sure was. I'm glad that now prices are down, I can earn more in HM because I get rewarded for more challenge, and bots have a harder time. It was annoying to know that only 12hr gimmick UW farmers could get cool items.

Umm..... are you sure you are playing Guild Wars? You cannot earn more in Hard Mode than was previously possible before the so called "scaled looting". Furthermore the amount you earn has NOTHING to do with whether or not you get rewarded more for challenge. If you were referring to the monetary reward for finishing quests, that's so minor as to be completely irrelevant. Beyond that, bots are NOT having a harder time. Go look at the Granite Citadel sometime. As many or more than ever there. You ever hear one of those bots say "Boy I'm tired. I guess I'll give up farming for the day."? They may be getting less per run, but they raise the price of online gold and still make the same amount of real money per day probably, so there's absolutely no incentive for them to quit doing it.

What's the definition of a cool item? And how are you more likely to get one now? If you couldn't afford 100K +20 ectos for something, how would you now suddenly be able to afford the 100K +2 ectos the same thing might cost now? You could just do what some of us do when we want a "cool" item. We find out where it drops and go play there until we get one. Oops, that's kind of like *gag* farming isn't it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darksun

Or "our economy is more stable, the game difficulty is more reasonable & you'll actually have a chance to get those cool items you want"
It's all on how you want to spin it.

Again, what game are you playing? Stability is usually defined by a minimal amount of variation. Since the update the economy has been the most unstable I've ever seen it. At one point I think ectos were around 17K, then down to 5 or so and then back up to 7 or 8 recently I think. How does that equal stability?

No one has yet explained just how anyone who couldn't afford to purchase cool items would suddenly be able to do that now since the non-farmer has no appreciable change to his income and still has the same level of expense.

If they want to play in HM, then they must finish the game first to get the extra chance of rare drops, and even then most rares are absolute crap that you couldn't sell for 2K if you spammed WTS all day. And if someone wants to get the "cool" items on his own after finishing the game -- well, guess what? He's going to have to FARM to get it unless he gets very lucky and it drops as he's doing a mission in that area.

So, as many people have already asked, exactly how does this last update even remotely help the casual player? We get how it harms the human solo or small group farmer, but how does it help those who just played the campaigns through in full groups?

TabascoSauce · May 02, 2007, 07:18 PM // 19:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darksun

Tobasco, you really need to stop just making stuff up.

Tabasco

You can go back to arguing with Blackbird now. If I have bothered you by pointing out that your posts are ironic in the pot and kettle variety, then I apologize. But it is still funny.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

Darksun · May 02, 2007, 08:10 PM // 20:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Kilgore

Umm..... are you sure you are playing Guild Wars? You cannot earn more in Hard Mode than was previously possible before the so called "scaled looting".

I do. I don't know what to tell you. The drop rate of several things is increased in HM.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Kilgore

What's the definition of a cool item? And how are you more likely to get one now?

I should have said rare. HM makes rares (and good ones to from my experience) drop 3x as much.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Kilgore

Again, what game are you playing? Stability is usually defined by a minimal amount of variation. Since the update the economy has been the most unstable I've ever seen it. At one point I think ectos were around 17K, then down to 5 or so and then back up to 7 or 8 recently I think. How does that equal stability?

What I mean by stable is more reasonable prices. Things always fluctuate after big changes, it just happens. Even if it's only based on perception. So I don't know if we can judge it yet. If it stays high for months, yes I would question the point of thi.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Kilgore

So, as many people have already asked, exactly how does this last update even remotely help the casual player? We get how it harms the human solo or small group farmer, but how does it help those who just played the campaigns through in full groups?

Ok, this seems to be (as far as I can tell) the crux of what you are asking.
First it doesn't just harm the human solo group, it harms bots. Their income just goes down. Someone recently said the GW gold prices went up, that's the only evidence I have that it is effecting them, but I can't be sure of that. But the idea makes sense.
Those who simply play through campaigns in smaller groups (which I think ANET has noticed as the majority) will have NO DIFFERENCE in drops. But will see lower prices on RUNES, RARE CRAFTING MATERIALS, and ITEMS sold by players.

I don't think it's the big "sky is falling" thing we think it is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

Tabasco

You can go back to arguing with Blackbird now. If I have bothered you by pointing out that your posts are ironic in the pot and kettle variety, then I apologize. But it is still funny.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

Man, you reach for anything you can, don't you? I guess it happens when you talk nonsense.
You point out nothing but your inability to prove anything. I love how you ask me to take Blackbird's "challenge", but can't answer a single thing I ask. Ironic? I realize you have no way to actually prove anything you say so you need to think up jabbing quips and beat on strawmen.

MSecorsky · May 02, 2007, 08:24 PM // 20:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

Apologies, double post.

You can delete the doubled post, fyi...

soySauceNR1ce · May 02, 2007, 08:33 PM // 20:33

wait so shouldn't this bring the price of an icy dragon sword up snice its a blue and it was kinda alrdy hard to farm wouldn't this just make the chances of droping an IDS less?

SirErnieMacGloop · May 02, 2007, 08:40 PM // 20:40

I'm a casual player of GW now, as in i don't play anymore.
I log in occaionally to keep in touch with friends but thats about it.

This whole things feels more like a alpha test for GW2 components.

I have lost interest in GW because the amount of different playstyles I want to play have been lessened with each of these major updates, going all the way back to AoE.
Put simply, some of the ways I enjoyed playing GW have been either removed of made to be less fun for me.

I do not enjoy major functionality changes every 3-6 months, this implies that the original product was broken and putting a spin on it saying anything else is just dis-honest. Skill adjustments are obviously needed on a regular basis to keep the meta-game from being stagnant.

PS- Why does everyone assume that bots are the primary source of income for the gold sellers? Bots running 24/7 can't keep up with the income potential of a power trader. Oh, and on an auction house, that is a primary tool of power traders.